This podcast series is a first-hand account on what I’ve learned from over 43 marketing tests I’ve conducted with real estate agents. Each test was focused towards generating more listings.
In marketing, you’re usually doing good if you can increase results by 20%. You’re doing great if you can increase results by 50% or more. Out of these 43 tests, 5 of them increased results between 250% and 800% each!
If you are involved in any capacity in marketing your business you will learn a lot from this series. And if you apply it you will earn a lot, too!
Transcription (was completed by automated process. Please ignore any speech-to-text errors)
[00:00:01] This is the get sellers calling you marketing podcasts for real estate agents. And I’m Beatty Carmichael for simple to do. Proven marketing strategies focus exclusively on finding sellers and getting more listings. Visit our Web site and get sellers calling you dot com.
[00:00:16] And now let’s begin our next session of get sellers calling you.
[00:00:23] Hi, this is Caroline Springer. And welcome to the next session of Get Zellers calling you with Beatty. Carmichael Baby is the CEO of Master Grabber at the creator of Agent Dominator and one of the top marketing experts in the real estate field. Today, we’re going to be continuing on our topic. The lessons we’ve learned about increasing our marketing result. And just a reminder, for those of you that are on our life call, we do have the line needed that will open up at the end for questions and answers at the end of the call. So welcome, baby. I’m excited to continue on hearing about all the lessons from your years in marketing.
[00:01:01] Well, I’m kind of excited about it, too, because, you know, the the most amazing thing with all this is the discovery of what works and why. And because for anyone out there who is doing their own marketing, you know, I beat your head against the wall doing something that is proven to be less effective than something else. So it’s just a love the topic. And I love sharing some of the discoveries. So this will be fun.
[00:01:30] Well, and I know you’re such as that kind of numbers guy. So I love that. All of our listeners get to kind of, you know, reap those benefits of all the tests you run the split A, B, all these different kinds of tests.
[00:01:43] I know. I know what’s going on with most of the listeners out there, because most realtors are Heidi and or high. Which is just the opposite of details focused and other going, oh, no, I don’t want all the details. Just, you know, like it’s like it’s like I know I don’t want to give birth to a baby. Just give me the baby. You know, so. But sometimes if you’re doing your own marketing or if you have someone on your team that you’ve hired out to do marketing, it’s important that they really understand this. So sometimes it takes a detail person to keep things going, right?
[00:02:15] Yeah. Yeah. And they can just reap the benefits of all of your work. All right. You learned and you can boil it down and give it to them. And, you know, quick and easy bullet points. Well, I don’t know if you wanted to do a quick refresher where we started and then we can kind of continue down the line and just see where we end up.
[00:02:35] Sure. I think that’s a great thing. So we’ve just gotten started in the series. And if my memory serves me correct on the last call, we were really just kind of giving an overview of the whole idea of testing and using split tests, which is where you test the very same marketing piece with only one change and you put it out there simultaneously to your market and then see which piece pulls the most results because whichever piece pulls the most, then at that point you know that that one change that you did makes a difference. OK. So that’s the only way you can really figure out what’s working in marketing. So we talked about that kind of the direction this was going. And I think if I recall, we talked about the type of footprint that we use of what’s called regular or normal or regular or reverse. OK. Regular fun is when you have like a dark font on a light colored background. And reverse font is where you have a light colored font, let’s say a flight on a dark background, let’s say a black background. And just amazing discovery that we came in when we did that and found that the normal font, the regular font style increase results. Eight hundred and fifty percent over the reverse font. And so what what this means is when you’re out there, you’re doing your you know, you’re putting together your Facebook ads or you’re doing your online. Sorry about that. Just not my headset off drawn line ads or postcards or or print media or anything like that. The tendency is we want to make it look really pretty, which means we use darker backgrounds and put print on top of it. And now it kind of looks pretty. But the reality is when you do that, you’re reducing your results. So this just some cool stuff. So that’s, I think, kind of where we talked about last time. And then we’ll pick up from there. Yes.
[00:04:44] That my memory correctly as well. And I believe we were just going to get started. And this is something that I know I’ve heard a lot of realtors talk about before. And just maybe, you know, what your experience is kind of the difference between a jumbo versus a regular postcard. Does it really matter? You know, have we seen a significant difference, you know, or have you seen what you studied over the years in marketing? I think that would be a really good place to start. I know a lot of people have asked that.
[00:05:15] Yes. Well, that’s a great, great place to start, because I remember. So in the early stages, we were doing postcard farming, geographic farming for clients, and we were using regular postcards, regular sized postcards of what I call ugly cards. OK. And and I kept hearing from some of our clients. You need to use jumbo. You need to use jumbo. And I go fly. And because everyone says jumbo works best. They said, I’ve done research. And even the post office says that the larger the postcard, the better the results and all that. So I’m one of these guys that I say, I don’t think you’ll make that big of a difference, but let’s test it because of what we are doing now to set the stage. OK. At that time, we were doing what’s called direct response card, meaning the postcards were going out into the geographic farm. They were offering some information for someone to respond to. And then the prospect would go to a Web site and check out what the free report of whatever it was that we’re offering. So what we were attempting to do is does it get the person to actually click on to the link that we had on the postcard? OK. And with that, we tested jumbo versus regular and we did this test four different times and all over the country, a large split a/b test is probably one the larger the split a/b tests that we’ve done and the results are really interesting. Would you like to guess what the results might have been? Which one outperformed the other?
[00:06:58] Well, I would assume that the regular did not outperform.
[00:07:05] That’s correct. And me there did a jumbo and this. Wow. Yeah, it was a dead. Dead even. OK. With one exception in Florida, jumbo outperformed regular sized post-card by like maybe 20 percent. I mean, that was it. I mean, it was very insignificant. I mean, 20 percent significant. But in the big scheme of the other things we tested is really insignificant. However, everywhere else that we tested. There was absolutely no discernable difference. And yeah. So here’s the conclusion. Now, by the way, I prefaced it that we are doing direct response marketing for reason. And this gets back into when you’re doing these type of marketing, you got to understand what the purpose of what you’re doing so that you can determine if the test that you’re doing is a valid test. OK. So what we were doing and it’s very important is when we’re doing the direct response stuff, we have a really good headline that grabs the attention already of someone who’s thinking about selling. So our postcards we’re trying to work are designed to identify sellers before they come on the market. And so we test a lot of different headlines and had narrowed down to those headlines that consistently produce. And the headline in general would say something like this. If you’re thinking about selling your home and then it would have something else, you know, like if you’re thinking about selling your home, read this postcard, read this headline. Here’s how to get more money. Here’s how to find out what your home is worth. Anything like that. But the marketing, there’s this thing called reticular activator and it’s sort like a radar. If you think about when you get your arm. In fact, let me just say. Have you guys ever bought a new or a new used car before?
[00:08:56] We’ve never bought a new car, but we have bought a used car. Is that OK?
[00:09:01] And when you bought the used car before you bought it, did you recall seeing lots of those cars around or just every now? And and I mean, was it something that really stood out all the time for you?
[00:09:12] Oh, I definitely know what you’re talking about. Yes. We did not see them very often. And then as soon as we started talking about buying them, it was everywhere. We saw them all the way. There you go. Think about that.
[00:09:24] Yeah. So that is what’s called the reticular activator. And what the reticular activator does, and this is really important in this type of marketing that we’re doing to identify sellers. What the reticular activator does is when you have your mind on something, then it looks for everything out there that might apply to what you have your mind on. OK. So when you have your mind on on a particular car, then. Now everywhere you look, every time you see one, those cars, your mind immediately recognizes it. But if you’re not looking for that car because you’re not in the market for it, then your mind just totally ignores it. So that’s the reticular activator. So when you have someone thinking about selling and you have a headline that is focused on what they’re looking for selling their home, then what? What these tests showed is it doesn’t matter the size of a postcard. The results will always be the same because the reticular activator overcomes any sizing issue on the postcard. So then that then begs the question, if everyone says jumbo postcards work better than regular postcard. Then what are they talking about? And I’ve got an idea. Would you like to venture a guess on on why when people say Jumbo’s work better than regular? Why they’re saying that?
[00:10:52] Just a first guesses. You know, since you were talking about the people that notice it. Are the people that are already thinking about selling. You know, it’s just that that’s going to jump out even more at them. You know, that’s something that they’re not going to easily lose. I can’t lose your information. And so it just seems like it would be a better idea if that’s going to. They’re already looking for it. It’s going to really catch their eye. But that’s just my first guess.
[00:11:16] Ok. So then why? If you take that out of the equation, then why is Jumbo? Why did people say that jumbo is more effective than regular? Because that’s the argument for why regular will work as well as jumbo. But in Flett cases, will jumbo work better than regular? That’s probably the better question to ask.
[00:11:41] I’m trying to think about what cases.
[00:11:45] All right. Can I offer a suggestion?
[00:11:46] Yes. I always like it when you offer me these things.
[00:11:49] It’s just the opposite of the case where it doesn’t work as in work any better. In other words, if regular works just as well as jumbo when you’re looking for something, then in those cases that you’re not looking for something, Jumbo’s gonna work better than regular because it gives you more. Real estate space, so to speak, to get in front of their face.
[00:12:13] Ok. Right. OK. This makes a lot of sense.
[00:12:16] And I don’t want to narrow this conversation to just postcards. We tested in postcards. We use postcards because it’s a very specific target marketing to a very specific list consistently. And in the real estate world, you still can’t beat it. OK. And there’s a lot of studies and statistics around that. But this concept I’m talking about, regular versus jumbo, is the same concept as a small ad versus a big ad on any sort of print medium or a small ad versus a big ad on an advertising Web site or anything like that. The concept is the same. And here’s the concept. When you are trying to push your message in front of someone who is not necessarily interested in that message right now, the larger the space you have to push it, the more the higher the response rate. So, for example, Bed, Bath and Beyond, 20 percent off. That comes on a jumbo postcard because I’m not thinking, you know, I really think about I need to go to Bed, Bath and Beyond today and buy something. So when I get the postcard, it prods me. Oh, maybe some these things we’re looking at buying. Maybe we need to go to Bed, Bath and Beyond first because I got a discount. In other words, they’re pushing their offer to me when it’s not something I’m normally thinking about.
[00:13:39] And so the way that we use that with our clients and what we find works best is if I have something I want to push to them, not offer them. I want to push information out to them so that I can touch every one on my list and influence them all. OK. So, for example, if I’m sending out a just sold postcard, I want everyone to take notice of that. So it’s going to be more effective on a jumbo postcard than a regular sized postcard because it’s going to be more in your face. And by getting it more in your face, I’m going influence everyone on my list. So the difference is, if I’m going to use a direct response card, I can go with a smaller card and be just as good as long as I got a good headline. But if it’s not a direct response card, it’s more of what I call a branding card or what we call personally an inside reality card where we’re trying to educate that homeowner and move them, move that needle in their brain to favor one client over another. Then that’s where the jumbo is more effective. Is that making sense?
[00:14:46] Oh, yes, it absolutely does. I think, you know, a lot of that, too, just really breaks down explanation to between. You know, I think everybody really does think, you know, the Gemba make sense, the jumbo would, you know, bring in more people. So I think that was a really thorough explanation to show. You know, here’s why. Here’s why. That probably still is the best choice. Even though that first results show that, you know, that maybe there wasn’t a difference there really? Is that the bottom line?
[00:15:13] Right. So it goes back to it’s all a matter of what is it that you’re trying to get them to do or what is it you’re trying to get your post-card to do or your advertisment if it’s not a postcard. And based on that jumbo for regular, we’ll have an impact or not.
[00:15:32] Well, good, I’m glad we kind of ventured into that and kind of, you know, helped settle that. I know that’s been something that I’ve heard a lot of people ask about. And, you know, I think that’s a really great kind of explanation to I guess solves the mystery of why which one’s better. I know something that we’ve spoken about before is just the difference between like a pretty or even you that spoke about this early on this call like a pretty versus ugly card. Do you want to kind of.
[00:16:05] You’re listening to the Get Cellar’s Calling You podcast to increase sales from past clients and sphere of influence or from a geographic farm, learn about Agent Dominator. We guarantee your sales in writing or give your money back. To learn more. Visit our Web site and get sellers calling EW.com and Slike Agent Dominator from the menu.
[00:16:23] And now back to the podcast.
[00:16:26] I don’t know. Expand on that. That could be another good topic to kind of go over.
[00:16:31] Sure. So. So let me preface this with especially for those agents who have been around long enough to have heard of a guy named Craig Proctor. OK, so Craig Proctor, if you don’t know him. Big coproducer up in Canada. He’s the one that started to pioneer primarily deal. The idea is, if I don’t sell your house, I’ll buy it. OK. And all these what I call amazing, unique selling propositions, these guarantees, these things that will cause someone to to respond. And so they’re all in sense sort of a direct response type of thing. This is also back during before, know, pre-Internet. And so a lot of newspaper ads and and did a lot of things with post-card mailing when post-card was probably one of the dominant ways that most agents to market themselves. So he started to do things and most agents reason go through that as most agents will recognize this as something that maybe Craig Proctor did. It’s not unique to him. This is actually something that a lot of direct marketers did in various venues, and that is to on a postcard to send an ugly postcard. Okay. An ugly postcard, meaning it’s just like stark yellow with with bold black print. Okay. In other words, when you get in the post, in the mail, it really stands out. And that’s why they would do it. And we’ve done that in the past with other clients in other industries using these really kind of ugly type of cards. They’re ugly in terms of they don’t look all that pretty, but they get tremendous results because of. They just stand out. So when we started with geographic farming, we started to use because we’re in direct response going to consumers in the mailbox, needing to compete.
[00:18:29] We used ugly postcards, OK? They were bright yellow. They had bold print. They were very plain. And they made the offer and they worked really, really well. But then we started to test what if we made them prettier? Because all our clients kept saying, well, we want something pretty. You know, I want something that that makes me feel good as a realtor because I’m selling these expensive homes and and I’ve got other realtors that have all these beautiful photographs on their stuff. And so I want mine to look pretty as well, because it makes me look more professional. That was the idea. So we went out there and we started to test ugly versus pretty pretty. And the way that you do it again, back for the way you displayed a/b tests is you change only one thing. So we would go out and in the mail using our direct response offers, which we could track really easily, you know, which is responding better. And we the only thing we change is the postcard design. So be the identical headline, identical copy. And we would change. We would test the ugly postcard versus a pretty postcard and pretty postcard. We had a graphic designer work on it. It had some pretty images on it rather than I had saw the image based background and heading. And, you know, you just look at it and it just looks more professionally done. So we did or split every a/b test, a fairly decent sized testing on that. And would you like to guess which card one?
[00:20:06] Well, I want to say that the ugly card one does, because that would be more interesting. No, nothing. Result thunder. That’s going to be my guess, although I would be surprised. Still, even though that’s my guess.
[00:20:20] I know it’s going on on this call because every time I ask you, you always pick the wrong thing because you pick something that you think is logical. So now I’ve got to tell you a funny story as we talked about.
[00:20:30] I think you’re picking the thing that’s opposite of what you really believe, right? Yeah. So we’re going back up until your humor story, because it’s just funny, has no marketing value, but it has some marketing value if you want to dig into it. But my son, my middle son, Beatty Junior, is a minimalist. I mean, he he wears the same clothes for, you know, a week over week. And I’m he’s an adult. A young adult. And and I’m not trying to speak poorly of it. And I’m not. But he’s just very minimalist. He’s he’s a he’s an outdoors person. He loves just to stay outdoors for a week or two at a time. You know, the only things to eat, unlike many gifts he done, like much or all of his clothes, are very drab color. They kind of get this idea, just this guy that’s just out and out in nature. My daughter, on the other hand, teenage daughter. She’s she’s definitely a girly girl to a degree. You know, she loves all the pretty things. She’s all social. She loves jewelry. And so it was her birthday, I think it was her 16th birthday. And my son bought her a necklace and she opened it up. And it was really a beautiful necklace. I mean, my daughter loved it. My wife loved it.
[00:21:48] I looked over at my son and said, who helped you pick it out? Because I know you can never take that. And he said, no, I picked it out myself. I said, no way. He said, yes. So how did you do it?
[00:22:00] He said, I went to the store and I picked out everything I liked the best. And I pulled him off the rack. And then I looked at everything remaining. And the one I liked the least is the one I pick.
[00:22:14] Oh, my God, you.
[00:22:17] So what’s happening is you pick just the opposite of what you think is the right answer and it turns out to be the right answer, except in this case, you’re actually wrong on that one. The pretty the pretty card outperformed the ugly card by two hundred and fifty percent. OK. Oh, wow. Well, good.
[00:22:37] So that’s two and a half times. What does that mean? What it means is. Now keep in mind the market that we’re going after, we’re going after the more sophisticated homeowner market, meaning, you know, these are average sales price 250, 300, basically right there at the average sales price in America. So these are average Americans in the average world of what they do. And we’re going after them with a professional agent. However, if we were to do this test in the other side of things, you know, you have you ever seen the signs for the advertisers? Like we buy ugly houses. You see those all over. Right.
[00:23:18] Yes. All around the like that.
[00:23:22] Yeah. And here’s what they found. Because of the market that they’re going after, they find that ugly works better than professional. The market that we’re going after professional work better than ugly. So just keep that in mind. OK. As you’re going after the market, then you apply whatever that market is most interested in. But if it end, increase our results. Two hundred and fifty percent. So we very quickly revamped all of our marketing pieces for our clients into the pretty cards. And that was what won the tests that we do. It’s a real interesting test.
[00:23:58] Wow. Well, I’m glad you shared because maybe one of our real stories might have been thinking the way I was. So we got that directive that you would think, you know, for this type of market, like you were saying, they would prefer the pretty girl. Yes. I don’t know. Do you feel like we have time to venture in to let’s say one other lesson.
[00:24:19] I think we’ve got I think we got time.
[00:24:21] Ok. Perfect. Well, what did you have next on like on your list as an idea? Is there.
[00:24:27] I’ve got something that no one would ever have thought about testing. No one would. They would just do it without even thinking that what they’re doing might be hurting their results. Even more so than our first call talking about regular print versus reverse print. OK. And it’s the actual type of font that you use now. The font is on is what the actual letters look like. And and and font, you have basically two categories. You have serif and sans serif. OK. Sarah, for the ones to have what I’ll call the little curly cues at the end sans serif sans means without.
[00:25:09] So sans serif means without her for without curlicues an easy way. Most people recognize it as you have like times Roman. OK. And you have Curly Bre-X or Areall or whatever the Mac version is of those same that are just very straight up and down type of letters. Are you are you do you understand what I’m talking about when I talk about the font?
[00:25:33] Yes, I do. I tend to think of what another word would be for those little things end. But again, get really cute.
[00:25:41] The curlicues, little flags. Is just a little bit of fanciness on the right. So here’s what’s interesting. Now, we did not do this test because we don’t have the the depth of ability to do this one. But I was reading from a shoot marketer’s name is Joe Sugarman. And he’s done tons and tons and tons of marketing for his business and other business products, hundreds of millions of dollars in sales and just very wealthy from it. And he was talking about what they did and from their testing. And it makes sense because, you know something I’ll recognize and then I go apply myself and I go, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And here’s what’s really interesting. That is in this test that was done back in the 80s and maybe 90s. They were testing serif versus sans serif. OK. The Curly Q versus the non curly Q and what they found is the Sarah font, the one with the curly cue created five hundred percent increase retention of the information that the person read over.
[00:26:58] Wow. Those sans serif. OK, so here’s the impact if I want to. Now, there’s some elements here that I think need to be addressed briefly. So if you think back in the 1980s and 1990s, the people that were reading advertisments during that timeframe.
[00:27:16] How old do you think they would be now in the early 2000s or 2018, 2019, 2017? And that’s what what age group do you think those people are now?
[00:27:31] The ones that were reading it back in which it in the 90s, in the 80s and 90s. How old are they gonna be now?
[00:27:39] Oh, I mean, 60 maybe.
[00:27:42] Ok. I’d say I’d say late 40s to into the 60s and 70s. Right. In other words, they’re not millennials. Right. OK.
[00:27:52] But they’re the age groups above millennials. And. And so what this means is, at the very least, if your target is going to be the Gen Xers, I think that’s what you call it. They’re gonna be late 40s into their 50s. And then you got baby boomers that are into their late 50s and 60s. If that’s your target market and you want them to be able to easily read your material, you need to use a Sarah fund, one with as little curly cues, because that’s what they grew up with. All the newspapers, all of the magazines, everything was printed with Sarah fun. So for them, it’s just a very comfortable read. And and even right now, I’m reading a book that’s written more by Millennial and it’s all in a sans serif fun. It is the hardest thing for me to read. I am struggling every single page because I’m not accustomed to it. It’s difficult to read. If it were done in sans serif, I could just read it with ease. And so what’s happening is I’m having to work harder to understand what it’s saying, because even though the words are the same, the way that they’re displayed is different. And it’s just uncomfortable. So if you’re targeting that older market, then use the font that they’re accustomed to annual increase their retention of what it is that you’re communicating with them on. Now, my my estimation on this is if you’re dealing with a younger market, you know, your age, 20s. OK, the millennials, you guys have grown up on your electronic devices and almost all text on electronic devices is sans serif. I don’t know if you noticed that. And so your age group is probably more likely to reach out to more quickly read and retain information from a sans serif font than you are Sarah font simply because it’s what you’re more familiar with. Does that make sense?
[00:29:54] It does, and it’s also to me, it’s a bit surprising that, you know, a 500 percent comprehension rate. You know, you would think that it would that the font would just effect, you know, maybe someone’s preference. But even just their comprehension of what they’re reading can be affected so much by just the simple point.
[00:30:12] That means, you know, these little things that make the big difference. Do you remember the story? For want of a nail. The battle was lost. Do you know what that story is? Or shall I share it?
[00:30:25] I don’t remember that story. I’m sorry.
[00:30:28] So this goes back and I think this is a true story goes back, probably the civil war some sometime when they had Calvary on horses. Okay. And it says, for the want of a nail, the horseshoe came off. For one to the horse, you coming off the horse stumbled and fell. And for the horse stumbling and fell, the rider, the general of the army fell and and was out of the battle. And because he’s out of battle, they lost that battle. And because that battle was lost, the war was lost. So for want of a nail. The war. All the repercussions of that downstream. They ended up losing the entire war. And so we can look at this as in terms of marketing. You know, people say, well, why do you why are you so fascinated with all these little things? What’s the big deal? The big deal is we’re in a battle. The battle is to win that consumers mind. And if you forget some these little things and you don’t put them in place, you never really understand the long term implication. But if you put all these little things in place, then you’ve got you’ve got the nails hammered and solidly on every horseshoe so that the horse you can’t fail. And that’s the rudimentary basic of making sure that your riders get into battle and do their best. Once you start having fail your points and a little things, then the big things start falling apart as well. So that’s what’s so cool with all of this.
[00:32:01] Well, that makes sense. And that’s a good picture to draw for everybody. Well, I think we are just about out of time and need to wrap up the call. Baby, thank you so much for your time and just sharing your expertise. I think this is really fun to learn. And here. You know, just all your experiences you’ve learned through all of your years in marketing. Was there anything else you’d like to share before we wrap up?
[00:32:26] Yeah, I’d love to. As always. We provide a service that funds all that we do so we can do these free podcasts and give away great information. The most important thing is I remember I think I made sure this one time, but I was at a conference with a client friend of mine. He was teaching at this conference in one Asli’s. He put up and this was in the context of getting a listing, especially from, you know, especially when you’re in competition with other agents and decide that he put up, that he would tell with his share, with his listing prospects is if you think hiring a professional is expensive, try hiring an amateur. OK. And I think the same rule kind of applies here. If you think hiring a service to do your marketing for you is expensive. Try doing it yourself as an amateur. And and so if you like to hire a professional, you know, we’re gonna be more expensive than you can do it on your own in dollars per item. But we’re going to be less expensive in terms of the overall results because we’re gonna blow your results out of the water. But it’s call Agent Dominator. You can learn more at Agent Dominator dot net. And what’s really cool about it, Caroline, is because of all these things we’ve done, because of all the testing in our in-depth knowledge of what’s going on and a long history. We actually guarantee the results. We guarantee the sales that our clients get at a very minimal level. You know, the minimum number of sales that they’ll get or we’ll refund their money. So it’s a great way to move into an area marketing. Be able to outsource that to someone and know that they’ll stand behind it or it’s, you know. So your risk is is minimal to nonexistent. So Agent Dominator dot net is how you can check that out.
[00:34:19] Well, great. Thank you, baby. And I think what we’re going to do is wrap up the call and then for those of you that are on with us live, if you have questions that you’d like to ask, Betty, just hold on. And as soon as we wrap everything up, we’ll go into a short question and answer time. And that’s all we have for today. Thanks for joining in.
[00:34:39] Well, thank you.
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[00:35:23] Have a great day.